𐌽𐌹𐌿𐍄𐌰𐌽𐌳𐌹𐍃 𐌲𐌰𐍅𐌰𐌿𐍂𐌳𐌾𐌰:Shikku27316

Hi you Vandal! We know each other from Unilang. My name there is GothicSp but here I 'm called Bokareis and use a different name, just like you. ;)

I 'm very happy with your effort to help us as there isn't a lot happening here often! Nowadays I have a Gothic news website, himma daga, so my contributions here are low, although I know enough Gothic now to write medium long articles. A very good welcome here.

By the way, at Wikipedia you end your messages with 4 ~, so you write ~ ~ ~ ~ without spaces. Then your name and the date at which you have written will appear.

Bokareis

Bokareis (talk) 22:49, 22 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Yes, I did recognise you (since I have a habit of looking at everyone's user pages with the hopes of seeing colourful userboxes and other information). I'd explain why I use this username, but it's better left unsaid, simply because it's a long story that brings back sad memories. But, I digress.

I'm actually interested in seeing what we could do to revive many cultural aspects of the ancient Gothic society as well. A language needs a culture to lean on, even just with idioms, proverbs, and allusions. These tend to be unique to every culture and every language they use, even if two cultures use the same language, it will be very different. Gothic should have some of its culture brought back, I think, so I'm doing research into what that was like. I'll see where I can put my work once I'm done.

I found out that religious customs from the Visigoths survive in Spain today, as do some examples of their architecture and traditional beliefs (such as the Wild Hunt). I'm going to do more research, too. I intend to write articles on these things, and it should help me learn Gothic along the way, as I still don't know very much of it.

(By the way, I know how to sign, but the top of the page still said that I was logged in as I was writing the message, and it turned out I wasn't when I saved, so I had to log in and go back and sign again.) --Shikku27316 (talk) 17:47, 23 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking that we should take the Welsh as an example. To keep their language and culture alive they organize festivals. We could try to gather money together to try and organize such a festival for the ancient Gothic culture, which would become a cultural and language festival. The only problems are the location and how we would do this, but it could work if enough people want to join.

Bokareis (talk) 13:46, 25 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

That's a good idea. The location would be hard, though I think it should be in different places each year. It could be in Germany, Asturias, Italy, etc. Oium (in Ukraine and Russia) would be an issue currently, though maybe one day. The problem is, I think people would confuse it with the Gothic subculture, the one that revolves around dark colours, death, Edgar Allen Poe, etc... I mean, I know almost nothing about the Gothic subculture, but people would get confused. I see that some people want to associate the two, and some "Goths" are claiming the Gothic language for their subculture, but I strongly disagree to this. I already fear talking about the goths for fear of being mistaken, having people thinking I'm talking about the subculture. I've never liked that they call themselves Goths anyway. So, I don't think they should claim the language and culture as their own. I don't dislike them, but it's confusing and rather upsetting that the two things will be confused. --Shikku27316 (talk) 21:23, 25 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Well, my interest in the Gothic language stems from the Gothic subculture, and I 'm quite aware that the two are different but the big similarity is that they both have as a central theme ancient times. The goths lived in the dark ages, around 400, 500 CA, and the modern Goths associate themselves with a culture of darkness, castles etc. It isn't like Punk and Gothic, if it were a Punk culture I would agree as there is no similarity between Punks and Goths, but modern Goths and ancient Goths have some little similarities and more people at this Wikipedia got interested in Gothic by the name. By the way, they didn't 'choose' the name Gothic, if you read about subcultures you would know that other people started to call these people Goths. I also disagree that it's wrong to associate ancient Goths and modern ones, the most likely group with motivation to learn Gothic is the Gothic subculture and this is also what made me learn Gothic, and now I actually speak the language quite well, if you don't want this group to get motivated to learn Gothic, you are asking for a huge decline of potentiality, as we also have people learning Gothic just because of this reason. Look at the Gothic for Goths videos from Benjamin Johnson, some Goths like these videos, but the learning material is scarce which is why they don't learn it. I furthermore think that Germany and Italy etc. would work better, as the Gothic we know nowadays mostly is the Gothic language and culture from WESTERN Europe, not from eastern Europe, but of course as this same language and culture in an earlier stage was active in Ukraine they could do it too... Bokareis (talk) 21:53, 25 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with Goths learning Gothic, I just want people to know that death and black clothing had nothing to do with the ancient Goths, and, if we have today's Goths be the core of the revival of the language, it will probably not become a community language. I'd also like people to know that Gothic never had anything to do with this subculture, and people should learn Gothic because they're interested in more than just the name. People might think, "oh, there's a language for our culture!" Again, if they want to learn it, let them. I have no problem with it, and I have not right to stop them from learning it, but it used to be a community language spoken by a community that included devout Christians, very old people, and other people that would have issues with the subculture. I want people to revive it as a community/ethnic language, where devout Christians and very old people speak it, alongside Goths and emos (what's the difference, anyway?) who got interested through the name. As for Benjamin Johnson, I checked out his website a while ago, and I had the impression that he wasn't a Goth, that the disagreed with modern Goths' claiming it, and he used "Gothic for Goths" to refer to people who claimed a Gothic ancestry or heritage. I didn't know that other people gave them the name, but I still wish I could openly discuss my interest without giving people the wrong message. If I were to find out that I were descended from a community of (ancient) Goths, I'd want to be able to say "I'm Gothic" and not have people think of me as belonging to the subculture. I'm sorry, whenever someone says "Gothic clothing", I think of a sagum or eagle fibula or something, and, to me, "Gothic music" is primarily Mozarabic chanting and Trossingen lyre. I have no problem with the Gothic subculture and I don't want to end their subculture (although I don't like how some of them revere depression and pretend to have it, and basically trivialise it, distort it, and make all truly depressed people seem angsty). I just want people to understand history better. I hope I'm not offending you or anyone, that's not my intention. --Shikku27316 (talk) 22:12, 25 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

In his 3rd video he uses some Goth phrases: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO6R3l0OngQ

There are actually Goth-christians which would be very offended by you saying that they wouldn't be accepted by Christians, why would they not be Christians? Does the Bible say anywhere: If you believe in Christ and christianity but dress up black you are not a believer? No.

And I didn't 'only' got interested by the name. It was the ancient times in which the Gothic language was spoken what interested me mostly. If it was a language from the 15th century it wouldn't be interesting at all too me. But this is 4th, 5th century, it's really amazing to know to me. Also the Goth-culture refers to ancient times, which is why I like it. There are some pretty good rock and metal bands singing in ancient Germanic language. A good example is Merseburger Zauberspruche by In Extremo, an Old German text sung by them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLnrHhFrG9s the Hildebrantslied by a Metal band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCOCiXk6ZMM.

I just think that you are very insulting and disrespectful to the beautiful Gothic subculture. When I listen to metal songs like this Hildebrandtslied they really take me to a different world. Bokareis (talk) 22:42, 25 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I don't mean to be disrespectful, I just don't know much about it. My comment about Chrisitanity and Goths was that many of the more devout Christians might think the Gothic subculture is sinful in some way. I don't think it is, but I'm just assuming some would. I never said you got interested in it by the name alone, but I know that plenty of people probably would. I didn't know that the Gothic subculture actually had ties to the Ancient Germans (at least culturally), so this is cool and I learned something. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I just don't know much about the Gothic subculture, so I'm going to have to learn more. I apologise if I've been offensive, and I just hope we can get along. I don't want to fight with anyone. However, I still wish I could look up things about the ancient Goths on Google and find stuff about them easily. I'll try to educate myself more, though, since it's clear I don't know much about this. I hope nobody is mad at me for this. --Shikku27316 (talk) 00:24, 26 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

It's ok. Don't worry, I just think that devout christians don't really exist a lot anymore, and devout christians wanting to learn Gothic is a very small amount of people, so we shouldn't rely on them for Gothic. Bokareis (talk) 12:22, 26 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Well, they might, since it actually may have been the liturgical language of the Mozarabic Rite (back when it was the Visigothic Rite). If any Mozarabic Catholics want to learn it and maybe have services in it, that would be interesting, so there is some space for it to happen in part. --Shikku27316 (talk) 20:45, 26 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that Gothic will have a role as a religious language in these modern times anymore. Most new things in Gothic, like this Wikipedia and the Communist Manifesto are secular and although the vocabulary is good for religious texts, I think the secular use will be bigger than the religious one. I agree though that services in a church in Gothic would be interesting, but I don't know where and how to find people interested, in which location we should do it and which people could do the services. The services should be open to both non-religious and religious people though in my opinion, as I, for example, not religious, would love to attend such a service. Bokareis (talk) 21:48, 26 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Well, of course you could go; you don't have to be Catholic to go. I think such a service would be held in Spain--perhaps Toledo, as that was the centre of Visigothic culture, and their capital city. If you look up "Mozarabic Rite", that's basically the rite the Visigoths used, and it is still used somewhat in Spain. I think the Ostrogoths must have either used something similar, or maybe the Latin rite, as well as the Vandals (though they may also have used a Greek mass, as the Catholics there used the Greek language). We actually have remnants of a missal for the Visigothic mass. I'm translating some parts of the mass, which reminds me: where can I put my translations that I make? --Shikku27316 (talk) 21:54, 26 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

What's your mail? I try to collect all modern works in Gothic but having one-to-one contact might make it a bit easier. I intend to create an online Gothic language library in the future and, I contacted the publisher of Le Petit Prince and they agree with a translation in Gothic. Zylbath wanted to translate it but he stopped because of different reasons. I read some parts and I want to try to see what I can translate. When I finish it we might have our first modern work in Gothic. When the communist manifesto is finished we have another work, but Gadrauhts hasn't contacted me yet about my expansion of his 1st chapter translation. :/ Bokareis (talk) 22:09, 26 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I don't really do e-mail, so I don't have a medium through which I can easily send you my translations. Mine are mostly religious, though I'll gladly help with translating The Little Prince (I love that book!). One of my dreams is to translate Redwall into Gothic and Vandalic, too. We just don't have all the vocabulary, but I'll come up with stuff and see. Since they've translated Harry Potter into Latin and Ancient Greek, I think such books would be great for Gothic, too. Again, the issue is vocabulary. Maybe, once I get my Vandalic website up, I can have a section for Gothic translations for you to see, or I could set up a "Gothic Library" website, or someone else could, and we could send files in of our translations. Here, I made a little trnaslation that I want to show you to see if it's good for a beginner: "Háilags, háilags, háilags, Frauja Guþ waírdiwē. Himins jah aírþa fullnand du wulþau Þis þiudanis. Ōsanna du Sunaus Daweidis. Þiuþeigs ist izei qimiþ in namin Fraujins. Ōsanna in háuhistin." It means "Holy, hol, holy, Lord God of hosts. Heaven and earth are full of the glory of your kingdom. Hosanna to the Son of David. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest." I'm wondering if I should use "jah" or "-uh" here, and if the correct idiom for "full of" is "fullnan du" or "fulljan du". --Shikku27316 (talk) 17:11, 27 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I prefer to create a library-website myself as I 'm currently collecting all works written in Gothic in modern times. Someone else probably doesn't have them collected. I 'm also contacting people probably having writings and translations in Gothic. I really need something like Skype or e-mail from you if you want to help with the Little Prince translation, I appreciate help but Wikipedia really is not the right platform for this and public talking places too, The Little Prince also is copyrighted so we really need to discuss in private to prevent copyright issues in a translation. Bokareis (talk) 22:43, 27 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

If it's copyrighted, then we probably shouldn't do this if it's illegal. All kinds of people translate the Little Prince into their own languages all the time, though. How about I put the translations on my DeviantArt, and link them to somehwere where many people can see them? This way, we won't be misusing Wikipedia. --Shikku27316 (talk) 23:03, 27 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

No listen, the publisher agrees in a translation, it's just that we can't send phrases or parts of the texts translated to each other on wikipedia or another place where everyone can see it, because then people could read it without buying the book. So if we work together in this you need to either lend a copy from the library or get your own and we discuss the translation "face-to-face", but not where everyone can read it. And it depends on what you translate, but if you translate famous works I want to collect them to put them, of course with the names of the authors, in a future digital library of modern and antique Gothic writings. Bokareis (talk) 00:11, 28 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

(Let's not indent too far--It gets harder to read.) Lend a copy of what? I have two different copies of The Little Prince, if that's what you mean. It's going to be a while before I can use e-mail again, but, in the meantime, we can divide up the book into sections, have each person take a section, and, eventually, we can e-mail all of it to one person. We have to have a way to know which words to use for words that don't have a translation; for example, "prince", "asteroid", "planet", "aeroplane", etc., or else, we'd all be using the wrong words throughout the bookand it'd be hard. By "antique texts", do you mean things written by Goths/during the Gothic periods of Spain and Italy's history? Or just old texts in general? --Shikku27316 (talk) 17:27, 28 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I recommend to translate the words with the most logical alternative. So for example, the world is 'faírƕus', we could use this word for other planets too, as the word 'manasēþs' means something like: the place where men are, which is not another planet, and aírþa refers to earth, while 'faírƕus' seems to have a neutral meaning for world. Aeroplane is a word I discussed with Gadrauhts, we agreed on the neologism: luftuskip. It consists only of Gothic words but an ancient Goth would have gotten the grasp of what it means by combining skip with luftus.

For words like asteroid we know that in Dutch, German, French etc. the word Asteroide is incorporated with the phonology of the particular language, so we can just use that as a loanword and make something like: 'astairoeid' of it. With antique texts I mean texts from antiquity, so indeed old texts in general. But we should give the most importance to Visigothic/Gothic texts yes. The copies is no problem I see, so the problem of having a Petit Prince edition is solved already. The only problem is communication and I first have to ask the publisher if he 100% agrees with a translation in Gothic and if it's ok if other people help with it. Maybe a community translation is possible. Bokareis (talk) 20:07, 28 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC) Yes, or we could use something based on Icelandic "reikistjarna" (wandering star). Or a loan word like most Germanic languages do, such as "planeits" (i-stem noun). I think "world" has a rather different meaning, though this could actually be closer to themeaning of "planet" as used in the book. "Asteroid" would come out as either "asteiraujd" or "asteraujd" or "astairaujd", since Greek "oi" usually becomes "auj". Do you know of any texts written during the Visigothic/Ostrogothic rule in Spain and Italy, etc.? Literature (especially poetry) was alive in Vandal Afric, but I don't know about in the Gothic states. --Shikku27316 (talk) 20:40, 28 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Hello, if I might hook up into your discussion:

First of all, you have to keep in mind that the editorial of Little Prince is very likely to demand a four-digit price of you to publish your book. The Sater Frisian community also translated the book into Sater Frisian and the editorial then demanded 2.000 € or so to publish the book since Sater Frisian, and so is Gothic, isn't really a widely spoken language and it seems clear that the book would only be bought by collectors.

As I mentioned elsewhere I already tried to translate the first passages but then lost sight of it. For 'The little prince' I chose 'Sa leitila fraujila', in accordance with discussions in the gothic-l mailing list.

If you want to you can become member of our gothic association and mention that in the editorial, that might give more reliablity. Zylbath (talk) 09:39, 29 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Well, if it involves dealing with money--especially Euros--that's out of the question for me. I'd like to help, but not if it's a money issue. --Shikku27316 (talk) 23:55, 30 𐌰𐌺𐍂𐌰𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Firefox translation in Gothic

If you want to help in the translation of Firefox in Gothic, register here and contribute at the language Gothic: http://mozilla.locamotion.org/ Bokareis (talk) 00:01, 10 𐍆𐍂𐌿𐌼𐌰 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Gothic IRC

Hi Shikku,

I gave you the link before, but refer you to it again. I 'm currently with another person in http://widget00.mibbit.com/?server=mibbit.afternet.org&channel=%23learngothic, if you are interested in joining a chat together with other people learning Gothic or interested in it, you can join it. Bokareis (talk) 20:50, 10 𐍆𐍂𐌿𐌼𐌰 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 2014 (UTC)

I actually can't right now, but thanks for the link! --Shikku27316 (talk) 21:08, 10 𐍆𐍂𐌿𐌼𐌰 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 2014 (UTC)

Help wanted

Hi shikku, I 'm cleaning up this wikipedia as you see. I want all articles to be written in correct Gothic so we need to correct all existing articles. I did that already partly with some articles. Unattested words need to be replaced with attested ones or good reconstructions if possible. We can for instance use skatts for the money of a country, but that isn't applied to all country pages yet. Before we create new articles or work on the revival of Gothic, we first need to have a proper wikipedia, I mean, we are an official wikipedia but it's really sad what a mess it is and I 'm ashamed of it (although it improved since I changed some things herre). We can always fix the interface later, but first we need the articles to be readable. I wondered if you want to help me? If you see any page which needs deletion because the Gothic is so terrible that it can't be corrected or because of a dead redirect, inform me and I 'll remove the pages. I also change seida to laufs, old English used leaf for book pages and it's an attested word which we could use. Bokareis (talk) 00:07, 24 𐍅𐌴𐌹𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2015 (UTC)

Flag

Added your flag to our language embassy. Some troll added a Swedish flag. But do you maybe have a high quality picture? I can't upload svg files. https://got.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%BB%F0%90%8C%BB%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%B9%F0%90%8C%B6%F0%90%8D%89_%F0%90%8D%82%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%B6%F0%90%8C%B3%F0%90%8D%89_%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%BD%F0%90%8C%B3%F0%90%8C%B1%F0%90%8C%B0%F0%90%8C%B7%F0%90%8D%84%F0%90%8C%B9

Bokareis (talk) 01:25, 24 𐍅𐌴𐌹𐌽𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2015 (UTC)

Clean-up

Hi Shikku, I give 15 days (about 2 weeks) to start help with a clean-up. Otherwise I 'll start removing all bad articles for which I don't have the energy to correct them. It's not ment to make people feel uncomfortable that I do this, but we need a Wikipedia without crap articles to be taken seriously. I cleaned up a lot aslready, but if we need to remove a lot of articles and keep about 200 articles to make a fresh good start with correct articles, so be it. Bokareis (talk) 21:54, 11 𐍆𐍂𐌿𐌼𐌰 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 2015 (UTC)

Correcting articles

I 'm almost finish with correcting all articles of the first row of page 1 of all pages or adding

𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌶𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃
𐍃𐌰 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐍆𐍃 𐌷𐌰𐌱𐌰𐌹𐌸 𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌶𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃, 𐌲𐌰𐌷𐌹𐌻𐍀 𐌰𐍄𐌲𐌰𐍂𐌰𐌹𐌷𐍄𐌾𐌰𐌽.

to them. You can start helping me by correcting articles with the

𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌶𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃
𐍃𐌰 𐌻𐌰𐌿𐍆𐍃 𐌷𐌰𐌱𐌰𐌹𐌸 𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌶𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃, 𐌲𐌰𐌷𐌹𐌻𐍀 𐌰𐍄𐌲𐌰𐍂𐌰𐌹𐌷𐍄𐌾𐌰𐌽.

template. Both short and long articles are included. Bokareis (talk) 05:02, 23 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 2015 (UTC)

Discussion about what to do with our interface

Please, join the discussion here: Gothic interface discussion. Bokareis (talk) 12:38, 8 𐌰𐍆𐍄𐌿𐌼𐌰 𐌾𐌹𐌿𐌻𐌴𐌹𐍃 2016 (UTC)