Hello. I'm sorry to say that, but I do not agree with the title of this article. I think we should either keep the original name of names from other languages or write them with the gothic alphabet to get the original pronounciation. But doing etymology by translating the parts of a compositum is not the right way, I guess. Most languages either keep the original spelling or adopt it to their alphabet. We should think about a guide line here about how to do that. In this cae I see two possibilities: 𐌰𐌼𐌹 𐍅𐌹𐌽𐌴𐌷𐍉𐌿𐍃𐌴 or 𐌰𐌼𐌹 𐍅𐌰𐌹𐌽𐌷𐌰𐌿𐍃. Anyway, we have that problem, that the gothic alphabet is in deficit concerning the amount of letters and signs. We cannot effectivly write english names with the gothic alphabet without using other letters: y -> 𐌹, ch -> 𐌺, etc. We maybe need a guide line how to transkribe english things in the gothic alphabet. And then we should do that with english persons aswell. Maybe I'm going to think about that soon and write something about it. Zylbath 23:56, 10 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
Change the title? In my opinion, to quote dearest Amy, "I say no, no no." I think you're worrying too much. I'm quite sure that Tolkien would have done it the same way. There is quite a bit of precedent for the approach I took. For a few examples:
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_II_Jagiełło http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagailis ...and his wife too: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_Bolesławówna http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedwig_von_Kalisch
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_de_France http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_XIV_di_Francia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_XIV. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodewijk_XIV_van_Frankrijk http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_XIV_de_Francia http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hloþƿiȝ_XIV_Franclandes
And there are quite a few variants on Christopher Columbus, and also for Sitting Bull (only the Welsh article has his original name), but you get the picture. And even here, Vladimir Lenin is named Waldamers Heleiïns Leneins: http://got.wikipedia.org/wiki/𐌻𐌴𐌽𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍃 ...though if on the off chance there were any Krimgoths still around at the time, they would have called him Waldamers Dwaliþs. Allsbairhts 14:53, 11 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- No, but you confound some things. All these different versions try to give the approximate pronounciation of the stranger name by using their own signs. In Gothic that would be for Winehouse: 𐍅𐌰𐌹𐌽𐌷𐌰𐌿𐍃. But still, there are name appendices like: the Big, the Red, from France etc. They are normally translated in every language and that should done here, too. It's all about pronounciation and NOT etymology. And that is what you were trying. You used the gothic words for the two parts of the compositum. That's a big difference! To show that it is really not appropriate, the name Beckham shouldn't be: 𐍂𐌹𐌽𐌽𐍉𐌼𐌹𐌼𐌶 which would be like runnel meat. Here with Winehouse, wine and 𐍅𐌴𐌹𐌽 look similar, but we should stick to the common practice using one's own alphabet and phonem inventory to image the approximate pronounciation of the name and not working with the etymological elements.
- Don't worry. It's not that I worry about this article that much, it's that I thought about the future and article names to-be. ;)
- Don't you have the time to write something more in this article. It looks so empty. =) Zylbath 23:09, 11 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, her last name had been, in earlier times, rendered into English in exactly such a manner (had it been only transliterated, it might be something like Uuiinhaus). So was mine, in fact (you can probably decipher both versions). As for "Jade", I had to do the best with the phonetic approach; Nefritika (from Greek, the source of some Gothic names) just wouldn't have worked. This does bring back the memories; Professor Weinstock of UT did, in fact, have an Icelandic version of his name back when he lived there. I do recall that his predecessor, Professor Hollander, took both approaches (phonetic and translated) in his rendition of the Elder Edda, depending on what worked the best. In any event, I do plan on expanding the article later on, and adding some others. Creating content is rather painstaking; I usually have cross-check four dictionaries. Allsbairhts 07:48, 14 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- But still there is a difference whether someone desides to translate his one name in order to have a cool sounding or to seem more culturally or someones name which is not my own or the one of a closely related person is just named in another language. Of course here name might have been translated into English a long time ago. But that was a cultural thing about assimilation in names etc. But here we just want to name things. And then we should, as I already said, stick to big consense of using the own alphabet creativly but phonotically right and non-redundantly to get an approximate pronounciation of the name. As I said: Beckham shouldn't become 𐍂𐌹𐌽𐌽𐍉𐌼𐌹𐌼𐌶, and also 𐍅𐌹𐌻𐌻 𐍃𐌼𐌹𐌸𐌰 is not really correct, since the "a" seems to be a masculine marker to indicate that it should mean the profession of a "smith". I know that in some languages names may differ: French Pierre, German Peter. But that is the work of a long language contact and development. But we are about to revitalize Gothic and we don't have that. And when talking of new learners, we should not try to confrond them by using different names for famous people. I know Gothic is cool and you want to be creative with that, but I guess this is a place where we should keep being followers to the mainstream of principles. If you look at the other versions of Amy Winehouse they mostly always use their alphabets to get the pronounciation without putting etymological touch to it.
- Yeah, that problem with the dictionaries. Luckily, I'm German and Köbler made a very good dictionary in German. What is your mother tongue? What dictionary do you use mostly? Zylbath 01:43, 15 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- I just don't see it as being any more of a stretch than Waldamers Heleiïns Leneins. As for Beckham, I would think that Brunnahaims would be the most accurate possible (it's not about meat). But, it's too far from the original to be easily recognizable; since the Gothic script is to be authoritative (if I understand your intention), it would be better to find the best transliteration. Wiljahilms Smiþa might actually work, IMO, but if you make a page called 𐍅𐌹𐌻𐌻 𐍃𐌼𐌹𐌸, I would be quite happy with it as is. Anyway, have a nice, cold Jever; life is good!
- A more difficult matter, though, is how should I refer to "jazz" and "rhythm & blues"? This will be a consideration when the time comes to expand the article. Would it be "Djaz" and "Hriþms jah blewos"? And what to do with "rehab"? (It's hard to imagine Goths wanting to quit drinking.) "Temperance hall" might work, but I can't find a translation for "temperance". Assuming they would have used a Greek loan word (fairly plausible, IMO) perhaps "fronesos" or "sofrosyns"?
- Aggilrazda is my native language. But I'm also fairly good with Fragkarazda and þiudisks, and less proficient with a few others. I don't have a primary dictionary, but usually end up checking several of them. Somehow I manage to understand a fair amount without having to refer to a dictionary. But translating into Gothic is another matter. Allsbairhts 13:18, 15 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- I haven't cared about the situation of the already existing articles. But Waldamers might be correct since some names have different forms in different languages, mostly prenames. I have already spoken with Robert Pfeffer who made the fonts here, whether he would have time to make an extended version of the fonts, where also the rest of the latin letters is. But as I overthink that now it wouldn't be that good, as Gothic already had this alphabet for centuries, we should just look how to manage all the English names. If we always try to put some etymology in it that would be a biiiig mess, when everybody has a different opinion on a form. For Will Smith I would just say 𐍅𐌹𐌻𐌻 𐍃𐌼𐌹𐌸 would be best, since the letters and sounds are all existant in Gothic. Daiv Beckham would be 𐌳𐌰𐌹𐍅𐌹𐌳 𐌱𐌰𐌹𐌺𐌷𐌰𐌹𐌼. Christina Aguilera would be 𐌺𐍂𐌹𐍃𐍄𐌹𐌽𐌰 𐌰𐌲𐌹𐌻𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌰. If we always care about the etymology that would take too much time and effort and we would have thousands of different forms. Nobody should do a semantic research when wanting to find a celebrity or so. The only thing which might be etymological is the declension. If we take 𐍅𐌹𐌻𐌻 𐍃𐌼𐌹𐌸 as the main form but want to say: He sees the Smith. 𐍃𐌰𐌹𐍈𐌹𐌸 𐌸𐌰𐌽𐌰 𐍃𐌼𐌹𐌸𐌰𐌽. Then a declension behaviour could appear according to the etymology of the word.
- We should think about doing a manifest of principles of how to transcribe English and other languages' names.
- Sounds nice, which dictionaries do you use then? Are there other good ones in the internet? Zylbath 14:05, 15 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- I believe that Dearest Amy has given us our most lively talk page yet! Hopefully the real page will match one day. Anyway, Aguilera is definitely 𐌰𐌲𐌲𐌹𐌻𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌰, for truly she is an angel! I've seen some of the endless hair-splitting debates on the English Wiki on how to do these things. My thoughts are that these fussy heirs of Procrustes should go out and find a girlfriend, or at least see some sunlight once in a while.
- In any case, I do have a proposal, which I'm hoping will be a best fit and provide consensus. If I understand your intentions, the ideal is for content to be a single page with a title in Wulfilas script. Yet transliteration is difficult in many cases, and IMO there are legitimate circumstances in which Gothic equivalents may be used. That being said, articles should be easy to find with a search. So, here's what we do. New articles will, where possible, be created with the Wulfilas script at least for the title, according to the writer's discretion. But, there will also be a redirect page titled in Latin script. So, if someone searches on "Alaric", then there will be such a page which redirects to "𐌰𐌻𐌰𐍂𐌴𐌹𐌺𐍃". (Right now, there is no such page, and you can't find this most famous figure without first knowing the Gothic spelling.) By this means, "Rome" and "Roma" will redirect to "𐍂𐌿𐌼𐌰". That will also make it much easier to search using a standard keyboard. And it will also remove ambiguities of transliteration; you could search for the zaniest of the Marx Brothers and not have to know whether he's called 𐌺𐌰𐍂𐌰 𐌼𐌰𐍂𐍇, 𐌺𐌰𐍂𐌻𐌿𐍃 𐌼𐌰𐍂𐍇𐍃, 𐌺𐌰𐍂𐌰 𐌼𐌰𐍂𐌺𐌿𐍃, 𐌺𐌰𐍂𐌰𐌿𐌻𐌿𐍃 𐌼𐌰𐍂𐌺𐌿𐍃, etc.
- Among others, I have PDF forms of "A Moeso-Gothic Glossary" and Dr. Oskar Priese's "Deutsch-gotisches Wörterbuch". I sometimes draw inspiration from the diligent efforts at http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/letters.htm and occasionally look up references in the Ulfilas Bible. I also check Verbix for conjugation, and the UT site for grammar. Allsbairhts 10:55, 16 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's definitly the most frequently discussed talk page recently. I really hope, that this thing about 𐌰𐌲𐌲𐌹𐌻𐌰𐌹𐍂𐌰 was just a joke, because that wouldn't be a factual discussion at all. I don't see this as a discussion and Amy's name but on a discussion on general principles about how to do those things. I know it might be a petty discussion here, but I think it's very important and it has to be done. Of course we can do a lot with redirects that isn't the question. But that wouldn't change the inconsistency, when we sometimes deal with etymology and sometimes just with pronounciation. Just watching how this is moving along wouldn't help as you see we already have disagreements at this point. ;) That the main page should be in wulfila's alphabet is clear, otherwise this wikipedia could get closed. But you are right, we should use our time rather for writing articles. ;) Zylbath 13:22, 16 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)
- 𐌽𐌴𐌹 𐍆𐌰𐌿𐍂𐌷𐍄𐌴𐌹; somebody else can write the Christina Aguilera article :) If you like, we could start a general discussion of the topic on the "baurgs brunna" page; other folks may have some thoughtful ideas. That being said, I was really hoping that my proposal would be better received, as it solves a number of problems. It's unavoidable that transliteration between dissimilar alphabets is problematic, and tends to be more art than science. If not, then there wouldn't be > 120 spellings of the name "Muammar Ghadafi". The good news is that the universe isn't going to explode because somebody writes "Czar" instead of "Tsar". Anyway, I was planning to do a few articles about historical figures, so I need to know how to proceed. I was considering Richard Nixon. My approach *normally* would be to use Gothic equivalents insofar as they're recognizable and make sense; that would render the name as 𐍂𐌴𐌹𐌺𐌰𐌷𐌰𐍂𐌳𐌿𐍃 𐌽𐌴𐌹𐌺𐍃𐍃𐌿𐌽𐌿𐍃, but I'm guessing that may be controversial. His article could be titled 𐍂𐌹𐌺𐌷𐌰𐍂𐌳 𐌽𐌹𐍇𐍉𐌽, which appears to be the best equivalence for the letters, but it would sound less natural in that language, and the pronunciation would be imprecise. Phonetically it would be something like 𐍂𐌹𐍄𐍃𐌷𐌰𐍂𐌳 𐌽𐌹𐌺𐍃𐍉𐌽, though the spelling wouldn't be correct either in English or Gothic. The title could be done in Latin letters, but that might also be unsatisfactory. What is preferable? (And by now I will be eagerly looking forward to an article on Friedrich Nietzsche!) Allsbairhts 10:22, 17 𐍆𐌰𐌽𐌹𐌼𐌴𐌽𐍉𐌸𐍃 2012 (UTC)