Talk:𐌴𐌼𐌴𐌹 π…πŒ°πŒΎπŒ½πŒ·πŒ°π…πƒ

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Hello. I'm sorry to say that, but I do not agree with the title of this article. I think we should either keep the original name of names from other languages or write them with the gothic alphabet to get the original pronounciation. But doing etymology by translating the parts of a compositum is not the right way, I guess. Most languages either keep the original spelling or adopt it to their alphabet. We should think about a guide line here about how to do that. In this cae I see two possibilities: 𐌰𐌼𐌹 π…πŒΉπŒ½πŒ΄πŒ·π‰πŒΏπƒπŒ΄ or 𐌰𐌼𐌹 π…πŒ°πŒΉπŒ½πŒ·πŒ°πŒΏπƒ. Anyway, we have that problem, that the gothic alphabet is in deficit concerning the amount of letters and signs. We cannot effectivly write english names with the gothic alphabet without using other letters: y -> 𐌹, ch -> 𐌺, etc. We maybe need a guide line how to transkribe english things in the gothic alphabet. And then we should do that with english persons aswell. Maybe I'm going to think about that soon and write something about it. Zylbath 23:56, 10 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)


Change the title? In my opinion, to quote dearest Amy, "I say no, no no." I think you're worrying too much. I'm quite sure that Tolkien would have done it the same way. There is quite a bit of precedent for the approach I took. For a few examples:

http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Iulius_Caesar http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_CΓ©sar http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaio_Giulio_Cesare

http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiríkur_rauði_Þorvaldsson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_the_red

http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/WΕ‚adysΕ‚aw_II_JagieΕ‚Ε‚o http://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagailis ...and his wife too: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_BolesΕ‚awΓ³wna http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedwig_von_Kalisch

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_de_France http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_XIV_di_Francia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_XIV. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodewijk_XIV_van_Frankrijk http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_XIV_de_Francia http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hloþƿiȝ_XIV_Franclandes

And there are quite a few variants on Christopher Columbus, and also for Sitting Bull (only the Welsh article has his original name), but you get the picture. And even here, Vladimir Lenin is named Waldamers HeleiΓ―ns Leneins: http://got.wikipedia.org/wiki/πŒ»πŒ΄πŒ½πŒ΄πŒΉπŒ½πƒ ...though if on the off chance there were any Krimgoths still around at the time, they would have called him Waldamers DwaliΓΎs. Allsbairhts 14:53, 11 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)

No, but you confound some things. All these different versions try to give the approximate pronounciation of the stranger name by using their own signs. In Gothic that would be for Winehouse: π…πŒ°πŒΉπŒ½πŒ·πŒ°πŒΏπƒ. But still, there are name appendices like: the Big, the Red, from France etc. They are normally translated in every language and that should done here, too. It's all about pronounciation and NOT etymology. And that is what you were trying. You used the gothic words for the two parts of the compositum. That's a big difference! To show that it is really not appropriate, the name Beckham shouldn't be: π‚πŒΉπŒ½πŒ½π‰πŒΌπŒΉπŒΌπŒΆ which would be like runnel meat. Here with Winehouse, wine and π…πŒ΄πŒΉπŒ½ look similar, but we should stick to the common practice using one's own alphabet and phonem inventory to image the approximate pronounciation of the name and not working with the etymological elements.
Don't worry. It's not that I worry about this article that much, it's that I thought about the future and article names to-be. ;)
Don't you have the time to write something more in this article. It looks so empty. =) Zylbath 23:09, 11 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
Actually, her last name had been, in earlier times, rendered into English in exactly such a manner (had it been only transliterated, it might be something like Uuiinhaus). So was mine, in fact (you can probably decipher both versions). As for "Jade", I had to do the best with the phonetic approach; Nefritika (from Greek, the source of some Gothic names) just wouldn't have worked. This does bring back the memories; Professor Weinstock of UT did, in fact, have an Icelandic version of his name back when he lived there. I do recall that his predecessor, Professor Hollander, took both approaches (phonetic and translated) in his rendition of the Elder Edda, depending on what worked the best. In any event, I do plan on expanding the article later on, and adding some others. Creating content is rather painstaking; I usually have cross-check four dictionaries. Allsbairhts 07:48, 14 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
But still there is a difference whether someone desides to translate his one name in order to have a cool sounding or to seem more culturally or someones name which is not my own or the one of a closely related person is just named in another language. Of course here name might have been translated into English a long time ago. But that was a cultural thing about assimilation in names etc. But here we just want to name things. And then we should, as I already said, stick to big consense of using the own alphabet creativly but phonotically right and non-redundantly to get an approximate pronounciation of the name. As I said: Beckham shouldn't become π‚πŒΉπŒ½πŒ½π‰πŒΌπŒΉπŒΌπŒΆ, and also π…πŒΉπŒ»πŒ» πƒπŒΌπŒΉπŒΈπŒ° is not really correct, since the "a" seems to be a masculine marker to indicate that it should mean the profession of a "smith". I know that in some languages names may differ: French Pierre, German Peter. But that is the work of a long language contact and development. But we are about to revitalize Gothic and we don't have that. And when talking of new learners, we should not try to confrond them by using different names for famous people. I know Gothic is cool and you want to be creative with that, but I guess this is a place where we should keep being followers to the mainstream of principles. If you look at the other versions of Amy Winehouse they mostly always use their alphabets to get the pronounciation without putting etymological touch to it.
Yeah, that problem with the dictionaries. Luckily, I'm German and KΓΆbler made a very good dictionary in German. What is your mother tongue? What dictionary do you use mostly? Zylbath 01:43, 15 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
I just don't see it as being any more of a stretch than Waldamers HeleiΓ―ns Leneins. As for Beckham, I would think that Brunnahaims would be the most accurate possible (it's not about meat). But, it's too far from the original to be easily recognizable; since the Gothic script is to be authoritative (if I understand your intention), it would be better to find the best transliteration. Wiljahilms SmiΓΎa might actually work, IMO, but if you make a page called π…πŒΉπŒ»πŒ» πƒπŒΌπŒΉπŒΈ, I would be quite happy with it as is. Anyway, have a nice, cold Jever; life is good!
A more difficult matter, though, is how should I refer to "jazz" and "rhythm & blues"? This will be a consideration when the time comes to expand the article. Would it be "Djaz" and "HriΓΎms jah blewos"? And what to do with "rehab"? (It's hard to imagine Goths wanting to quit drinking.) "Temperance hall" might work, but I can't find a translation for "temperance". Assuming they would have used a Greek loan word (fairly plausible, IMO) perhaps "fronesos" or "sofrosyns"?
Aggilrazda is my native language. But I'm also fairly good with Fragkarazda and ΓΎiudisks, and less proficient with a few others. I don't have a primary dictionary, but usually end up checking several of them. Somehow I manage to understand a fair amount without having to refer to a dictionary. But translating into Gothic is another matter. Allsbairhts 13:18, 15 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
I haven't cared about the situation of the already existing articles. But Waldamers might be correct since some names have different forms in different languages, mostly prenames. I have already spoken with Robert Pfeffer who made the fonts here, whether he would have time to make an extended version of the fonts, where also the rest of the latin letters is. But as I overthink that now it wouldn't be that good, as Gothic already had this alphabet for centuries, we should just look how to manage all the English names. If we always try to put some etymology in it that would be a biiiig mess, when everybody has a different opinion on a form. For Will Smith I would just say π…πŒΉπŒ»πŒ» πƒπŒΌπŒΉπŒΈ would be best, since the letters and sounds are all existant in Gothic. Daiv Beckham would be πŒ³πŒ°πŒΉπ…πŒΉπŒ³ 𐌱𐌰𐌹𐌺𐌷𐌰𐌹𐌼. Christina Aguilera would be πŒΊπ‚πŒΉπƒπ„πŒΉπŒ½πŒ° πŒ°πŒ²πŒΉπŒ»πŒ°πŒΉπ‚πŒ°. If we always care about the etymology that would take too much time and effort and we would have thousands of different forms. Nobody should do a semantic research when wanting to find a celebrity or so. The only thing which might be etymological is the declension. If we take π…πŒΉπŒ»πŒ» πƒπŒΌπŒΉπŒΈ as the main form but want to say: He sees the Smith. πƒπŒ°πŒΉπˆπŒΉπŒΈ 𐌸𐌰𐌽𐌰 πƒπŒΌπŒΉπŒΈπŒ°πŒ½. Then a declension behaviour could appear according to the etymology of the word.
We should think about doing a manifest of principles of how to transcribe English and other languages' names.
Sounds nice, which dictionaries do you use then? Are there other good ones in the internet? Zylbath 14:05, 15 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
I believe that Dearest Amy has given us our most lively talk page yet! Hopefully the real page will match one day. Anyway, Aguilera is definitely πŒ°πŒ²πŒ²πŒΉπŒ»πŒ°πŒΉπ‚πŒ°, for truly she is an angel! I've seen some of the endless hair-splitting debates on the English Wiki on how to do these things. My thoughts are that these fussy heirs of Procrustes should go out and find a girlfriend, or at least see some sunlight once in a while.
In any case, I do have a proposal, which I'm hoping will be a best fit and provide consensus. If I understand your intentions, the ideal is for content to be a single page with a title in Wulfilas script. Yet transliteration is difficult in many cases, and IMO there are legitimate circumstances in which Gothic equivalents may be used. That being said, articles should be easy to find with a search. So, here's what we do. New articles will, where possible, be created with the Wulfilas script at least for the title, according to the writer's discretion. But, there will also be a redirect page titled in Latin script. So, if someone searches on "Alaric", then there will be such a page which redirects to "πŒ°πŒ»πŒ°π‚πŒ΄πŒΉπŒΊπƒ". (Right now, there is no such page, and you can't find this most famous figure without first knowing the Gothic spelling.) By this means, "Rome" and "Roma" will redirect to "π‚πŒΏπŒΌπŒ°". That will also make it much easier to search using a standard keyboard. And it will also remove ambiguities of transliteration; you could search for the zaniest of the Marx Brothers and not have to know whether he's called πŒΊπŒ°π‚πŒ° πŒΌπŒ°π‚π‡, πŒΊπŒ°π‚πŒ»πŒΏπƒ πŒΌπŒ°π‚π‡πƒ, πŒΊπŒ°π‚πŒ° πŒΌπŒ°π‚πŒΊπŒΏπƒ, πŒΊπŒ°π‚πŒ°πŒΏπŒ»πŒΏπƒ πŒΌπŒ°π‚πŒΊπŒΏπƒ, etc.
Among others, I have PDF forms of "A Moeso-Gothic Glossary" and Dr. Oskar Priese's "Deutsch-gotisches WΓΆrterbuch". I sometimes draw inspiration from the diligent efforts at http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/letters.htm and occasionally look up references in the Ulfilas Bible. I also check Verbix for conjugation, and the UT site for grammar. Allsbairhts 10:55, 16 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, it's definitly the most frequently discussed talk page recently. I really hope, that this thing about πŒ°πŒ²πŒ²πŒΉπŒ»πŒ°πŒΉπ‚πŒ° was just a joke, because that wouldn't be a factual discussion at all. I don't see this as a discussion and Amy's name but on a discussion on general principles about how to do those things. I know it might be a petty discussion here, but I think it's very important and it has to be done. Of course we can do a lot with redirects that isn't the question. But that wouldn't change the inconsistency, when we sometimes deal with etymology and sometimes just with pronounciation. Just watching how this is moving along wouldn't help as you see we already have disagreements at this point. ;) That the main page should be in wulfila's alphabet is clear, otherwise this wikipedia could get closed. But you are right, we should use our time rather for writing articles. ;) Zylbath 13:22, 16 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)
𐌽𐌴𐌹 π†πŒ°πŒΏπ‚πŒ·π„πŒ΄πŒΉ; somebody else can write the Christina Aguilera article :) If you like, we could start a general discussion of the topic on the "baurgs brunna" page; other folks may have some thoughtful ideas. That being said, I was really hoping that my proposal would be better received, as it solves a number of problems. It's unavoidable that transliteration between dissimilar alphabets is problematic, and tends to be more art than science. If not, then there wouldn't be > 120 spellings of the name "Muammar Ghadafi". The good news is that the universe isn't going to explode because somebody writes "Czar" instead of "Tsar". Anyway, I was planning to do a few articles about historical figures, so I need to know how to proceed. I was considering Richard Nixon. My approach *normally* would be to use Gothic equivalents insofar as they're recognizable and make sense; that would render the name as π‚πŒ΄πŒΉπŒΊπŒ°πŒ·πŒ°π‚πŒ³πŒΏπƒ πŒ½πŒ΄πŒΉπŒΊπƒπƒπŒΏπŒ½πŒΏπƒ, but I'm guessing that may be controversial. His article could be titled π‚πŒΉπŒΊπŒ·πŒ°π‚πŒ³ πŒ½πŒΉπ‡π‰πŒ½, which appears to be the best equivalence for the letters, but it would sound less natural in that language, and the pronunciation would be imprecise. Phonetically it would be something like π‚πŒΉπ„πƒπŒ·πŒ°π‚πŒ³ πŒ½πŒΉπŒΊπƒπ‰πŒ½, though the spelling wouldn't be correct either in English or Gothic. The title could be done in Latin letters, but that might also be unsatisfactory. What is preferable? (And by now I will be eagerly looking forward to an article on Friedrich Nietzsche!) Allsbairhts 10:22, 17 π†πŒ°πŒ½πŒΉπŒΌπŒ΄πŒ½π‰πŒΈπƒ 2012 (UTC)